Curse

Yawgmoth · Jan 03, 2012, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Good to know the numbers finally, without them there wasn't much point discussing the impact of this update.
So this is BIG.
Lots and lots of currently used (and overused) builds are heavily or often strictly based on armor ignoring damage. This update can make them just inferior to other possibilities, as tons of other regular damage sources will be now more efficient at killing. In effect we will see most of old builds replaced by something new.
Lets hope for a large variety of viable choices.

Aside, I wonder if a SoS rit will be still be able to solo vanquish most areas.

DiogoSilva · Jan 03, 2012, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

Aside, I wonder if a SoS rit will be still be able to solo vanquish most areas.

Signet of Spirits damage is going to be nerfed with the update as well. So it's a double nerf for them.

Legendary Elementalist · Jan 03, 2012, 08:39 PM // 20:39

I'm a bit confused - will the armor be reduced by 3 for each level above 20 or for every level or by 3 for each level with a min. 60 al? If it's the first case then they will make it even worse for eles - 24lvl foes will have -12 AR which is only a few % and 80hp more... I hoped they would make it the way that foes on hm have 60-80 AL and their hp is increased by 200... So yea, probly it will change nothing, bad job anet... It won't make eles a viable dps class and it won't hurt armor ignoring dmg that much neither...
The option with AL being set to max 80 and hp +200 would fix everything, ele dps would be good, armor ignoring dmg wouldn't be overpowered and buffed daggers spammer wouldn't destroy all in 3 seconds....

Skyy High · Jan 03, 2012, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormDragonZ

So the best way to get this discrimination worked out is to make HM slightly more difficult so Elementalists and melee folks don't feel left out? My confusion is getting uglier.

Eh, the idea is to make HM harder for armor-ignoring damage users (mesmers, ritualists, necros, buffed assassins and other physicals) and easier for armor-respecting damage (eles, non-spirit rit damage, base damage of rangers/pets and other physicals). Notice how all of the first category are used extensively for damage in PvE, and none of the second category are.

If done right, the change should basically be an across-the-board nerf to armor-ignoring damage while leaving it the same for eles and other armor-respecting builds. Considering how easy it's gotten to roll through HM with 7 heroes, all of whom have builds based on ignoring armor, I can't see why you're confused here. It's a nerf targeted directly at the power creep that armor-ignoring damage has seen in the past few years, it's much-needed and has been asked for for, literally, years.

Jenn · Jan 03, 2012, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Eh, the idea is to make HM harder for armor-ignoring damage users (mesmers, ritualists, necros, buffed assassins and other physicals) and easier for armor-respecting damage (eles, non-spirit rit damage, base damage of rangers/pets and other physicals). Notice how all of the first category are used extensively for damage in PvE, and none of the second category are.

This.

ANet is simply recognizing that certain classes, like the Elementalist, have become obsolete in their traditionally designed roles (I'm not talking about healing eles, guys). I think it's a great change to the game because it makes certain classes more viable than they have been lately in hard mode. I remember going through hard mode on my ele and if my intent was to do damage, I might as well pack up and go home. Other classes were far more proficient at doing damage in hard mode despite the class description of the Ele.

WarcryOfTruth · Jan 04, 2012, 12:55 AM // 00:55

I hope this isn't credible. It seems almost nothing. I had the understanding that the update would reduce HM armor to NM levels, and increase HP significantly. Before I believe that post, I want to see some proof =/

Why? · Jan 04, 2012, 03:12 AM // 03:12

i'd love if they could make some simple change like this and make all classes viable again in HM.

Especially if they could make hero ai work well with physical stuff. Although they would have to work hard to make that not invincible. Even now physical damage heroes do really well.

Daesu · Jan 04, 2012, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn

ANet is simply recognizing that certain classes, like the Elementalist, have become obsolete in their traditionally designed roles (I'm not talking about healing eles, guys). I think it's a great change to the game because it makes certain classes more viable than they have been lately in hard mode. I remember going through hard mode on my ele and if my intent was to do damage, I might as well pack up and go home. Other classes were far more proficient at doing damage in hard mode despite the class description of the Ele.

As someone with all 10 character classes and 20 characters, eles are hardly the weakest profession in HM today. So I disagree that Eles are obsolete and I am sure there are lots of GWAMM and legendary VQer eles in this game.

As for the HM changes, I expect it to be tougher for ALL professions because of the numerous complaints from speed clearing, cons-addicted, players that HM has become too easy. Since I am tired of all these brags, I sincerely wish that ANet would make HM much harder than it is today. Bring back the fear of HM into the hearts of players and destroy SC/farm for all I care! 1-hit kills FTW!

Why? · Jan 04, 2012, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

As someone with all 10 character classes and 20 characters, eles are hardly the weakest profession in HM today. So I disagree that Eles are obsolete and I am sure there are lots of GWAMM and legendary VQer eles in this game.

As for the HM changes, I expect it to be tougher for ALL professions because of the numerous complaints from speed clearing, cons-addicted, players that HM has become too easy. Since I am tired of all these brags, I sincerely wish that ANet would make HM much harder than it is today. Bring back the fear of HM into the hearts of players and destroy SC/farm for all I care! 1-hit kills FTW!

anyone should realize those braggarts are doing hm with team gimmick builds and have never even tried to do hm with all heroes.

In my mind hard mode is pretty darn good, but i would love if all the classes were about the same effectiveness. While I've done Eternal Grove and Dzagonur Bastion HM with only heroes, it is not something I really want to do again. And the elite areas still all need dedicated teams of players for anyone but the most hard core to finish.

The real problem is that the mold of 2 necro/2 mesmer/ 2 rit and 2 of anything else has been set. It is going to take a good hard smack to change that line of thinking. But at least most people have stopped running Discord or Sabway full time.

Skyy High · Jan 04, 2012, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

As someone with all 10 character classes and 20 characters, eles are hardly the weakest profession in HM today. So I disagree that Eles are obsolete and I am sure there are lots of GWAMM and legendary VQer eles in this game.

What's worse at accomplishing their profession's (ostensible) role? Eles are advertised as damage dealers, and they simply aren't. Paragons need some love, but at least their go-to build has them being paragons (chucking spears while shouting protective stuff). Rangers need some love too, but I don't think a simple change in game mechanics will help them, and at least this should help bow and pet damage a little.

Daesu · Jan 04, 2012, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why?

anyone should realize those braggarts are doing hm with team gimmick builds and have never even tried to do hm with all heroes.

You are right, but a lot of people rely on cons to play this game. On Sunday, I took 2 of my new characters through Eternal Grove HM Zaishen mission PUGs and guess what? They actually used Armor of Salvation and Essence of Celerity for a such an easy mission! These are probably the same guys who come back here to complain that HM is too easy, duh.

Quote:

In my mind hard mode is pretty darn good, but i would love if all the classes were about the same effectiveness. While I've done Eternal Grove and Dzagonur Bastion HM with only heroes, it is not something I really want to do again. And the elite areas still all need dedicated teams of players for anyone but the most hard core to finish.

The real problem is that the mold of 2 necro/2 mesmer/ 2 rit and 2 of anything else has been set. It is going to take a good hard smack to change that line of thinking. But at least most people have stopped running Discord or Sabway full time.

In a sense I can understand the frustration of Eles wanting to have the same effectiveness in HM as the rits. But different professions fill different roles too. For example, warriors use weapons that are affected by target armor, yet they are one of the most effective characters in GW in terms of tanking, SY, damage, and buffs.

Similarly eles shouldn't be just about damage because every classes in GW have to be able to dish out their own damage and ANet has to balance out those damage numbers to keep the classes balanced. Eles have to find their own roles or niche then they can really be the best at something useful for the team and yet not be overpowered relative to the other classes.

SongOf · Jan 04, 2012, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by spun ducky

This is the proposed change got to love test krewe leaks.

If this is indeed leaked Test Krewe information, then the thread should be deleted. You are not doing anyone a favor by supporting breaches of NDAs.

Axel Zinfandel · Jan 04, 2012, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Where the heck to people stumble upon these 'leaks' anyway? lol

davehall · Jan 04, 2012, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Where the heck to people stumble upon these 'leaks' anyway? lol

The "leaked" info was actually posted December 8th on the official site then pulled within an hour or so of the posting, but someone on guru manage to grab a copy of the text before it disappeared. We were discussing the proposed changes here.

zwei2stein · Jan 04, 2012, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You are right, but a lot of people rely on cons to play this game. On Sunday, I took 2 of my new characters through Eternal Grove HM Zaishen mission PUGs and guess what? They actually used Armor of Salvation and Essence of Celerity for a such an easy mission! These are probably the same guys who come back here to complain that HM is too easy, duh.

To be fair, most people remember that mission as nightmareish failfest from their first time in normal mode so they take precautions.

Legendary Elementalist · Jan 04, 2012, 01:16 PM // 13:16

No one has answered my previous question, but well, if it's the way they said it will make ele dmg on hard more even worse!
Imagine: lvl 26 monster has now 120 AL, and after the update it will have 102 AL and + 120hp! Ele dmg will still be almost nothing, and that hp increase will hurt ele even more, bad job anet... Yes, you can always take cracked armour but hey, it's only adjancet so it's not a big deal, and that update was supposed to fix ele dmg... Anet, seriously?
Anf for cases like lvl 23 monster with 110AL and 300hp these days, the change to 101 AL and 360 HP means nothing... If for low lvl foes it doesn't make eles even worse, it certainly won't make them any better...

Well, I hope they will rebalance that like casters have 60 Al, adventurers have 70AL melees have 80AL vs elemental and hp will be increased for 30-40 per level, that would do the job... Ele dmg would be viable and all that armor ignoring builds wouldn't pwn them all in 3 secs... Also hm should get a little harder with such kind of a update i guess.

Jeydra · Jan 04, 2012, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why?

anyone should realize those braggarts are doing hm with team gimmick builds and have never even tried to do hm with all heroes.

In my mind hard mode is pretty darn good, but i would love if all the classes were about the same effectiveness. While I've done Eternal Grove and Dzagonur Bastion HM with only heroes, it is not something I really want to do again. And the elite areas still all need dedicated teams of players for anyone but the most hard core to finish.

The real problem is that the mold of 2 necro/2 mesmer/ 2 rit and 2 of anything else has been set. It is going to take a good hard smack to change that line of thinking. But at least most people have stopped running Discord or Sabway full time.

I can do Eternal Grove and Dzagonur Bastion HM no problems with 7 heroes, and I don't use cons or 2 Nec / 2 Mes / 2 Rit.

There are a few tough areas out there with 7H (DoA HM, UW HM), but I find most of the game is too easy.

@above - that's 18 armour + 20 from Cracked Armour or almost 40. -40 armour doubles your unboosted damage. Are you really claiming that's not significant?

Legendary Elementalist · Jan 04, 2012, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Well yes, but a good nuker is nearby nuker (SH, SF, UG or Rodgort or whatever) and you can easily spread cracked armour only for adjanced range, and adjanced range isn't what nukers have been made for... Yes, it works with good balls, but for most cases nearby is the only way to go.

EDIT:
Adjanced death blossom + splinter spammer >>> adjanced ele nuker with doubled dmg all the way.
Keep in mind that mobs kite from ele aoes and deep freeze isn't maintanable.

DiogoSilva · Jan 04, 2012, 02:06 PM // 14:06

At least eles will have better ways to apply cracked armor now; I can see some dual combos with one nuker and one with a cracked armor elite. Thunderclap might only be adjacent, but seems to be a good skill nonetheless; Shockwave is risky, but it might be a good alternative.

Quote:

Similarly eles shouldn't be just about damage because every classes in GW have to be able to dish out their own damage and ANet has to balance out those damage numbers to keep the classes balanced. Eles have to find their own roles or niche then they can really be the best at something useful for the team and yet not be overpowered relative to the other classes.

The problem is, when it comes to support, elementalists are lacking as well. Or better yet, they are decent, but their support skills also rely on epic damage, which simply isn't there.

Why do you think most of the upcomming update aknowledges that they already are powerhouses (when the armor is right, aka for NM) with SF/ SH, and focus instead on improving the support of their other elites, or create new mechanics that rely on interaction with party members?

After this update, eles should be stronger as damage dealers, but we don't know by how much, and should be stronger in support, so the players can effectively do what you suggested them to do.

Jeydra · Jan 04, 2012, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Elementalist

Well yes, but a good nuker is nearby nuker (SH, SF, UG or Rodgort or whatever) and you can easily spread cracked armour only for adjanced range, and adjanced range isn't what nukers have been made for... Yes, it works with good balls, but for most cases nearby is the only way to go.

EDIT:
Adjanced death blossom + splinter spammer >>> adjanced ele nuker with doubled dmg all the way.
Keep in mind that mobs kite from ele aoes and deep freeze isn't maintanable.

Weaken Armour has 5s cooldown, you do not have to use DoTAoE, and if you cannot kill a balled group in 10s (that's Deep Freeze duration) you have to fix your teambuild. Finally, the big advantages Eles have over Assassins are 1) you can stack multiple Eles easier than multiple Assassins, 2) you can change targets easier / you deal with overaggro better / you don't have to get as good balls, and 3) you are less vulnerable to shutdown.

There's no doubting that this is a significant buff to Elementalist damage. Whether or not it's enough, though, that is another question.

@above - Elementalists are actually the best healers in the game. If you're thinking of "support" as stuff like Unsteady Ground and Blinding Flash, then by far the bigger issue is that it's better to overload damage over these skills. After all, why use Blinding Flash if you don't need it to stay alive?